Apostasy: What is it Again?

I was glad to have the First Presidency issue a statement on recent events. The excommunication of Ordain Women co-founder, Kate Kelly (along with pending disciplinary actions against other Mormon individuals) has thrown the Mormon world, not to mention my world, into a furor.


The First Presidency’s statement reads:

In God’s plan for the happiness and eternal progression of His children, the blessings of His priesthood are equally available to men and women. Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices. All service in the Church has equal merit in the eyes of God. We express profound gratitude for the millions of Latter-day Saint women and men who willingly and effectively serve God and His children. Because of their faith and service, they have discovered that the Church is a place of spiritual nourishment and growth.

We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding. We feel special concern, however, for members who distance themselves from Church doctrine or practice and, by advocacy, encourage others to follow them.

Simply asking questions has never constituted apostasy. Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.

The Council of
The First Presidency and
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints


This statement is, to my knowledge, the first time the LDS Church has publicly disclosed the definition of “apostasy” as provided in the LDS Church Handbook of Instructions (Vol.1).  Volume 1 of the Church Handbook outlines the responsibilities of Church leaders and provides detailed information about Church policies and procedures, including how disciplinary councils are held (i.e.,  ecclesiastical trials during which a member of the Church is tried for alleged violations of Church standards). Coincidentally, this particular Handbook is only available to certain ecclesiastical leaders in the Church, and so the procedure of disciplinary councils, and even what constitutes an ex-communicable offense, is often a mystery to the average LDS lay member.

Why is apostasy such an important word here? Generally, it is the reason why members are currently being excommunicated from the Church. In the end, apostasy is the charge by which, if proven at a disciplinary council, the Church revokes an individual’s membership and temple covenants.

Oh snap. That’s clear, isn’t it?  The Church says its okay to ask questions.  It’s sad the First Presidency even has to iterate this point, but if my recent Facebook discussions have taught me anything, it’s that this point actually needs to be made. So, for the record, ASKING QUESTIONS = OKAY.

In asking these questions, you’re only in danger of committing apostasy if you do one of two things:  1) Repeatedly act in clear, deliberate and open public (CDOP) opposition to the Church or it’s faithful leaders; or 2) Persist, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine. First, acting in CDOP opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders. That obviously means you can ask questions if the answers correspond with Church doctrine, but you can’t ask questions in a way that opposes the Church leaders…doctrine…practices…customs…culture….wait, have I gone too far afield here?


1. Repeatedly Acting in Clear, Deliberate and Open Public Opposition to the Church or its Faithful Leaders.

What is the right way to ask controversial questions, without acting in opposition to the Church? Should we not talk about topics that might make the Church or its leaders look bad, or un-clarified doctrine? Are we allowed to regularly disagree with our Sunday School teachers? Write opinions that differ from the Mormon mainstream on a blog post?

Acting “in clear, deliberate and open public opposition” may seem like a sufficiently restrictive term; but it can actually be applied to a wide range of behavior and discourse, whose characterization as CDOP opposition would be almost entirely based, not on how the agitator feels about his or her actions, but on how the recipient of the agitation  perceives this opposition.  The Science magazine offers a wonderful analysis of this behavior: simply put, we judge others’ behavior primarily by what we observe (their actions), but we judge our own behavior by our actions, thoughts, feelings and intentions. So we can often misperceive the intentions and feelings behind others’ actions.

Ally Isom and the Church Public Affairs department have a real problem with improper tone. However, if our brief foray into psychology has taught us anything, it is that we don’t all measure impropriety the same way. Therefore, behavior that may seem like deliberate antagonism and rebellion to an institution, may be perceived as necessary agitation and debate to the actors. Without defending their actions, I believe this is the disconnect that exists between some Ordain Women members and their ecclesiastical leaders.

In a June 19, 2014 press statement, Jessica Moody, from the Church Public Affairs department, emphasized just how important an individual’s perceived intent is when the Church analyzes his or her behavior: “How and why one asks is as important as the questions we’re asking.”

Ms. Moody continues, “What causes concern for Church leaders is when personal motivations drive those conversations beyond discussion, and a person or group begins recruiting others to insist on changes in Church doctrines or structure. When it goes so far as creating organized groups, staging public events to further a cause or creating literature for members to share in their local congregations, the Church has to protect the integrity of its doctrine as well as other members from being misled.”

So, sharing your opinions in local Sunday School meetings is okay.  Asking questions in chat rooms, on Facebook, and on a blog seems to be okay too.  It’s the tone and the persuasiveness of your arguments that could get you into trouble. And your tone will be judged by what the Church, as your ultimate judge, perceives your intentions and motivations to be.

On the one hand, I feel like the Church spokeswoman is saying, “You will know if you have proper intentions in asking your questions. If you publicly air controversial views, make sure you’re not trying to persuade others to take that winding path. Learn from Ordain Women.  Don’t petition, demonstrate, or put out informative pamphlets trying to change Church doctrine or structure.”

On the other hand, my cynical mind would add the following interpretation to Ms. Moody’s Public Affairs statement: “If you advocate for a position that isn’t strictly in keeping with Church practice, feel free to express your opinions—just don’t oppose current Church practice/doctrine/policy. And if you do, act alone; don’t make your arguments too persuasive, so that other people follow you.”

Following this logical trail leaves me with several concerns. How effective an examination of Church doctrine/practice/policy can we make, before running the risk of a disciplinary council? Should we just keep the difficult questions a private matter as Kate Kelly’s leaders counseled her? I want to voice my questions and opinions and have a sounding board for these thoughts.

There’s merit in public discussion: when you publicly discuss and develop your ideas, you get to see if they make sense.  If your ideas are logically sound, won’t others be attracted to your ideas, and start to share them, then possibly follow them…and is this wrong, even if the ideas are controversial?

It seems, with Kate Kelly’s excommunication, the Church is trying to set some clear boundaries about what its members cannot do—recruit others to insist on changes in Church doctrines or structure (that’s an interesting one); organize into groups; stage public events to further a cause [to change doctrines or structure]; or create literature for members to share in their local congregations. All of which Ordain Women has done. To this list, Elder Whitney Clayton would unofficially add that public advocacy for the ordination of women is apostasy, advice which Kate Kelly’s local leaders took all-too literally.

At this point, I feel I should mention that neither the Church Public Affairs statements, nor Elder Clayton’s private remarks, are doctrine. I’m not sure if, under the strict meaning of the word, even the First Presidency Statement is doctrine. However, at the very least, these comments reflect current Church culture, practice, and the standards by which questioning minds will be judged today.


2. Persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine. The First Presidency press release also cautions against statements that contain “false teachings” or which mislead other members. This corresponds with the second part of the definition of apostasy provided by the First Presidency: persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.  Clearly, Kate Kelly’s local leaders felt impelled to correct false doctrinal teachings about women and the priesthood. To that end, Ms. Kelly’s stake president asked her to take down her website, disassociate herself from Ordain Women and publicly repent. Her refusal to do so led to her excommunication.

Putting aside for a moment that women’s ordination to the priesthood is neither fully supported nor contradicted within Mormon doctrine, it’s difficult for us on the blogosphere, who are interested in this topic, to know from this ecclesiastical counsel exactly what we can and cannot say on the subject.

Let’s just say we won’t advocate for the ordination of women. Then we’ll be safe from charges of apostasy, right?  Unfortunately, Kate Kelly is only one of several Mormon activists facing disciplinary action for airing their opinions: those facing charges of apostasy include John Dehlin, gay rights advocate and founder of the Mormon Stories podcast; Alan Rock Waterman, founder of the Pure Mormonism blog; and now-excommunicated Denver Snuffer, Jr., author and founder of the Denver Snuffer blog. Their writings analyze, and advocate, the writers’ beliefs about a diverse range of subjects—same-sex marriage and attraction; church history and theology; the corporate arm of the Church; and doctrinal topics like priestcraft, the Word of Wisdom, current tithing practices, and polygamy.

I can only assume their local leaders relied on the definition of apostasy provided in Church Handbook of Instructions (Vol. 1), in deciding to charge these members with apostasy. And the truth is, each and every one of these individuals could be found guilty of the charge—because, in the end, the definition of apostasy is, well… so darn broad.

Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.

To be fair, the local LDS leaders did instruct these individuals (I’ll call them the Foursome) what they could do to avoid excommunication.  However, these leaders did not always iterate what specific beliefs got the Foursome into trouble in the first place, or why these beliefs contradicted Church doctrine. This concerns me, a blogger, because in some instances the individuals were actually excommunicated, without knowing why their beliefs were false.

What’s more, local leaders have a lot of discretion in deciding whether individual has taught false doctrine, or acted in opposition to the Church and its faithful leaders.  Church spokeswoman Jessica Moody recently commented on this subject, “[The] standard procedural handbook says: ‘Local presiding officers should not expect General Authorities to tell them how to decide difficult matters. Decisions on Church discipline are within the discretion and authority of local presiding officers as they prayerfully seek guidance from the Lord.’ ”

So, even if the Foursome’s ecclesiastical leaders had clarified the false doctrinal teachings for these individuals, their leaders’ explanations would not apply to any interpretations my bishop or stake president might have of Church doctrine.

There are undoubtedly positive results from giving local Church leaders discretion in convening disciplinary councils and defining apostate behavior and beliefs. Disciplinary councils are at times referred to as “councils of love” because they can offer a repentance process based on that member’s particular sins (and there are a multitude of ways to sin). Many leaders who have participated in these councils will say they have felt the presence of the Lord’s Spirit attending them during the process.

But even with all those positive accounts, there is no member of the Church who wants to be in front of a disciplinary council. And, unfortunately, even with recent statements by Church Public Affairs and the Office of the First Presidency outlining some unacceptable behavior, I’m not sure a critical thinker and writer within the Church will know how to clearly avoid prohibitive Church actions in the future.

The New York Times and the Huffington Post report at least dozen Mormons in the U.S. are facing discipline for expressing criticisms of the Church or support for same-sex marriage or women’s ordination on-line, with several more unofficial reports of disciplinary action coming in across the blogosphere.

I’d hope an LDS member with questions finds his or her Church leaders to be a generally tolerant group; but our leaders’ current scrutiny of social media is troubling. And there is still a lot of gray area when it comes to defining what makes an online discussion acceptable or unacceptable; not only because apostasy is so broadly defined, but because our local leaders have great discretion when disciplining the members in their jurisdiction.

I’ve heard a fair number of stories where local Church leaders responded to questions about LDS doctrine and practice with acceptance, respect and even support. I’ve also heard several accounts when the individuals were very surprised their bishops had taken exception to their online comments. It’s important to note here that no disciplinary action takes place in a vacuum. I’d like to think it takes more than just one online comment, Facebook post or discussion group to violate Church policy and irk your local leaders.

For good or for ill, the Church disciplinary process is a very localized affair that relies on subjective interpretations of, not only doctrine, but also an individual’s behavior, intentions, and beliefs. Done under the perfect guidance of the Holy Spirit, I actually believe this can be a good implementation of ecclesiastical judgment.

However, when such an active community of bloggers, writers, chatters and Facebook posters is given only general guidelines, and varying implementation of those guidelines, it’s also hard to know when we risk Church discipline for an expressed thought. As someone who explores her faith through questioning, exploring and discussing her ideas, I’d like to know before I’m in danger of the judgment; facing the great unknown of the disciplinary council is a gamble I just don’t want to make.


For a list of references used in this post, click here. This is not an official web site of the LDS Church.

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Father’s Day Discourses

In light of recent events in the LDS Church, I was very interested in the Father’s Day sermons that would be given in various wards. Reading the stories on the Mormon message boards provided me with moments of hilarity but also hope. Here’s a wonderful story (re-posted with the author’s permission):

Exploring Sainthood Father's Day post

Apostacy and the Facebook Debate

Screen shot 2014-05-13 at 7.04.55 AM

I hope you find this Facebook exchange as dumbfounding as I do.  It all started because I RSVP’d to the “Ordain Women’s Six Discussions Launch!” on May 15th. That same day, someone I don’t know posted below my RSVP saying, “Since Paul warned against hanging out with apostates, we are not going!” Something you should know about me—I don’t like it when people make snap judgments; and I hate bullying, especially ideological bullying. In LDS culture, apostate is a loaded term—even implying someone is apostate can be very offensive. I didn’t see why that person would feel the need to use that term, just because I’d said I was going to listen to the first OW Discussion.  So my immediate thought was, “Oh no you didn’t!

Then I took the next logical step and checked out this person’s FB profile—what do you know, he* spends his time perusing Ordain Women and feminist blogs, “correcting flawed reasoning and false doctrines.” In fact, he’d posted the same “apostate” comment below another woman’s RSVP to the OW event! And with that, it was on. This person had made it their mission to go around making inflammatory statements on the Internet, and, whether he knew it or not, he had just picked a fight with me.  Thus began the following Facebook exchange.

    • Jackie Ball I’m sorry, but there are few authorized messengers of God. I’d check with Church authorities before making that kind of statement. And you don’t seem qualified, either personally or by proper Church authority, to be a judge of your fellow men.
      May 11 at 8:13am · Edited · Like · 1
    •  Adam K. Allred True To The Faith: “Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that you should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, you will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout your life.”
    • Jackie Ball You can try to judge as regards yourself and your relationships Adam K. Allred- but calling someone apostate means you’ve made a judgment on their relationship with God and the Church. Sounds like overstepping one’s bounds (as few judges in Israel can make the determination of one’s worthiness and standing in the LDS Church) and therefore unrighteous judgment to me.
    •  Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Actually Christ taught that we are able to, and should judge, others under the direction of the spirit. That is how we can know who to preach to, and as Paul directed, who we should avoid having communion with. Each individual is entitled to know by personal revelation where apostasy lies, so they can avoid organizations that support it and people who teach it. Sharing those spiritual impressions may not be binding on others, but it does put them on notice to beware, and thus fulfills the command to warn our neighbors.
    •  Jackie Ball I disagree; your words and unjustified judgment do not denote the presence of the Spirit. Moreover, if you truly read the scriptures, such as the Sermon on the Mount, you would know that a disciple of Christ is repeatedly cautioned against fallen man’s natural tendencies to judge your fellow men unrighteously. You’ve admitted your impression may not be binding on others, but even in applying the term “apostates” to an ENTIRE group of people, you’re overreaching your spiritual stewardship as a member of the LDS church and as a disciple of Christ.
    • Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Disagreement is expected. The Pharisees thought Jesus was the apostate, not them, the brethren who sought to overthrow Joseph in Kirtland, thought Joseph was apostate not them. Apostate persons or organization rarely ever admit their status as such. It is the Holy Spirit that will verify that the OW movement is an apostate movement. Here is what the scriptures really teach: Matthew 7:1-2 JST a clear command to judge righteously. Matthew 7:15-17 you can judge false prophets to be false by their fruits. Moroni 7:16 one purpose we have the spirit is to judge. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, requires judgment to determine our associations. There are hundreds more. Bottom line, before anyone participates in or supports this movement they should seek the spirit, which will warn them of the movement’s true nature and founder. God commands us to love all our neighbors and love means we seek to warn them all. Thus warning all and sharing what the spirit has taught us is completely within the bounds of our spiritual stewardship.
    • Jackie Ball You read these scriptures about people wrongly judging Christ and Joseph Smith as apostates, and see no caution to yourself to avoid unrighteous judgment? My B.S. detector goes off when I hear someone say “here is what the scriptures ‘really’ teach”, and then use them to gratify their self-serving ideas. What qualifies you to judge the OW members’ hearts, and judge the leaders of this group to be apostate? How is your judgment of other people’s moral worthiness (people whom you do not seem to know personally) righteous and within your stewardship? When have you studied what OW advocates? Have you spoken and gotten to know them? Can’t you see a clear admonition to you in Matthew 7:1-2, Moroni 7:16 to make sure you be truly informed and know the people you are judging? The scriptures actually uniformly urge restraint in judging others, most notably those you cited in Matthew and Moroni, and clarify Christ is the only person who can truly judge a person’s heart. Isa. 11:3-4; Rom. 2:1.
      May 11 at 9:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
    • Kristy Money Hi Brother and Sister Shurtleff, Kristy Money here, from SC. I’m so glad you are passionate about the gospel, just like OW supporters are, hopefully we can respectfully dialogue and refrain from throwing around the word apostate. Because we are all just doing our best to follow the Spirit and be good members of the church, even when we disagree.
    • Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Jackie: It is hypocritical to chide others for “twisting the scriptures to gratify their self serving idea” and to do so by twisting the scriptures to gratify one’s own self serving ideas. The scriptures when read in spiritual context, teach that all of God’s children, every living soul, is entitled to know by revelation from God, if an organization and its supporters are true followers of Jesus or are teaching apostate doctrines. God is qualified to judge OW and its supporters, AND if the perfect God then reveals to me or others that OW is laboring under apostasy, it is God’s judgement and not the persons that you must take issue with. God wants us to know truth and to avoid deception, and so will guide each soul to avoid organizations, movements and their supporters whose actions are contrary to God’s will. Thus the only issue that really remains is whether God has revealed to me the true nature of the OW movement, and if he has, others should take the warning and likewise go to Him to know the truth. Since you admit that Christ is the only one who can judge, then however, he judges you, me and the OW movement, you should be willing to accept it.
      13 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Adam K. Allred Kristy: What are they supposed to call this group, if not apostate? People who profess love for the gospel but just happen to advocate positions that are contrary to it? The reference to this group as apostate is not an effort to provoke, but rather to give a warning of what it truly is. They would not be calling it apostate if it were not so obviously rebelling against the church.
      13 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Jackie Ball Not so Nina/Keith Shurtleff; my ideas are not self-serving, and I find it interesting you upbraid me for something you yourself are doing! You have judged and insulted me without any basis–according to you, I am a hypocrite AND an apostate. Your spiritual meter is clearly off. If there is hypocrisy, it is in someone who claims to know the “spiritual context” of the scriptures yet ignores the basic admonition to avoid unrighteous judgment and to love your fellow men. I don’t claim to be perfect enough to know God’s judgment of an entire group of people, like OW- yet you do. Your actions are not consistent with someone who could receive such a revelation. And your refusal to acknowledge that the ability to judge someone’s standing in the Church (whether they are apostate) is outside of your sphere of stewardship, astounds me. I see a person with single-minded views, who claims to know the will of God but does not have the spiritual acumen or insight to be able to know His will. Leave such grand proclamations of moral worthiness to the appropriate person–Christ.
      11 hrs · Edited · Like
    • Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Restating flawed arguments and misapplication of scripture does not make them any more valid. Our polarized positions are clear for sincere truth seekers to consider. Either Christ, the appropriate judge, has revealed to me by his Holy Spirit that the OW movement and its supporters are suffering under apostasy, or he has not. For obvious reasons Jackie does not believe it, but that does not change my assertions. So now the choice lies with the uncommitted, sincere truth seekers to read both positions and then to prayerfully seek to know the truth of the matter by revelation from God. That is the only real value of such exchanges as this.
    • Adam K. Allred You claim that he has judged and insulted you. I don’t believe that either is actually the case, especially the latter. He has simply seen what you are supporting and has told you what the Spirit has revealed unto him – that the OW group is not in good standing with God. You claim that he has insulted you. I may be mistaken, but I do not see an objective to insult by him. His only comment that I feel could be considered insulting is when he call the OW movement apostate. If you are offended by this then perhaps you are one who “taketh the truth to be hard.
      You claim that he is a hypocrite because he claims to know spiritual context while exercising unrighteous judgement towards others as well as not loving them. I would argue that it is because he loves you and the OW members that he spends time to dispel false doctrine and malcontent towards God’s current Church here on Earth. It is because he, along with many others, feels the spirit manifest truth that his judgments are not unrighteous. You can claim that he does not feel the Spirit concerning this topic which will slightly discount his words, but this does not make it true. You state that it requires a perfect person to judge the merits of this group. I cannot restrain myself from saying that this is ridiculous. We came here to gain a body, to know good from evil, and to prove our allegiance to that which is good. If someone could not so much as determine whether a group is correct in its doctrinal views then they would surely be unfit to be tested on their choices.“Your actions are not consistent with someone who could receive such a revelation” I don’t know how well you know Bishop Shurtleff, but I personally have found him to be a very charitable man. He isn’t boastful of his righteous actions nor of his service for Christ but instead he lives, as I have seen, as a witness of the truthfulness of the gospel. If there is any person that I know personally who’s actions merit the blessings of revelation, that person would be Bishop Shurtleff.”I see a person with single-minded views, who claims to know the will of God but does not have the spiritual acumen or insight to be able to know His will.” I don’t want to appear to pretend to know how God thinks, but it seems to me that He also has, by your definition, a singleness in mind when it comes to the Gospel. That is, doctrine that is correct, that He has revealed to His prophets here on Earth, and doctrine that is incorrect. I do not believe that He sees the OW’s cause as viable dependent on the number of times He is asked for it to be. He is the enforcer of truth. “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away”(Doctrine and Covenants 1:38) According to this, He has doctrine that is already in place, and it can not be changed by any person who feels “open-minded” enough to challenge it. Continuing on to the next verse: “For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.” Notice that it is the Spirit that is bearing record to men concerning the truth.”Leave such grand proclamations of moral worthiness to the appropriate person–Christ.” What would Christ have us do? He is not currently residing on the Earth, for reasons that should be evident. Yet, I believe that He has made proclamations through those who do listen to the Spirit and through his apostles here on Earth.
      9 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
    • Jackie Ball Of course I don’t believe your assertions Keith/Nina Shurtleff, because your attitudes and unfamiliarity with the people in this group prove you could not have received this revelation. I am not saying they are inspired, chosen by God, or any other such grand statement. I only took exception to your high-handed, uninformed judgment of the ENTIRE group as apostate. Now I also take exception to your belief that someone who does not believe you are an inspired messenger, must be misapplying scripture. Please carefully choose the labels you apply to people before trolling the internet to make your views known. Thank you for the detailed analysis of my words Adam K. Allred, I’ll do you the respect of disproving your arguments in order. First point: you cannot claim Keith Shurtleff didn’t have an objective to insult me when he has applied the labels of “hypocrite” and “apostate” to me, solely as a supporter of OW and someone who doesn’t agree with Keith’s self-serving interpretation of the scriptures. Example: “God is qualified to judge OW and its supporters, AND if the perfect God then reveals to me or others that OW is laboring under apostasy, it is God’s judgement and not the persons that you must take issue with.” Silly Keith- not only am I not a member of Ordain Women, I don’t advocate for women to have the priesthood (although I believe they could someday); if such views are “apostate” then here is proof he has sadly, sadly misjudged me. How could I take the “truth” to be hard when his words are not true, and based on false beliefs about me and my character? I don’t feel OW to be apostate, but we’ll move on to your next point: I can’t know Keith Shurtleff does not feel the Spirit concerning this topic. How can he receive a spiritual revelation that is outside of the sphere of his stewardship, and of people whom he does not know personally? The General Authorities have repeatedly cautioned against making judgments based on limited information. Keith Shurtleff has not given any evidence, other than his feelings, that he can know this group is apostate. How can you judge someone you don’t know? That is patently obvious to me, which brings me to your third point: I claimed it takes a perfect person to judge this group. You misstated me; I specifically said Keith should leave judgments to Christ, but my main point was Keith Shurtleff was not qualified to make that judgment. Dallin H. Oaks gave a wonderful talk about judgments, “Judge Not and Judging”. I agree with Elder Oaks’ talk, and never took exception to Keith’s idea that we can be inspired by the Spirit in making judgments about how to direct our own lives. But Dallin Oaks specifically cautions, “we should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities” and we should “refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts”. Bishop or not, “charitable” or not, Keith is not entitled to label a group or a person apostate; I’m not within his stewardship, neither are the OW leaders. He has not proved to have adequate knowledge of the people or positions to be able to judge. And none of his actions on this post have showed any of that charity or humility you claim for him (point four). Point five: don’t quote scriptures and ignore their context. God constantly gives our leaders revelation to direct the Church. If his doctrine was already fully & correctly established, why, only through questioning by LDS leaders, did we subsequently receive the vision of the three degrees of glory (D&C 76) and the EXTENSION of the priesthood to members of African descent (Official Declaration 2). If anything, these experiences show me OW’s cause can be as viable as others; which is why I say, again, the priesthood can be extended to women, even if I don’t advocate the change right now. Look back again at my posts, you will see I originally only took exception to Keith Shurtleff’s broad misstatement of OW and their supporters as “apostate”. His subsequent comments only re-confirmed my opinion that Keith Shurtleff cannot have received a mandate from God to tell the world his ill-formed judgment.
      17 mins · Edited · Like
      [*If you’ve made it to the end of this FB exchange, you know why I believe this was the husband writing; although either spouse, or both, could have chimed in.]
      I know I should’ve turned the other cheek; I clearly did nothing to convince him he was wrong in labeling me and Ordain Women apostate.  But something inside of me just feels so good at standing up to him.

Supporting Women: A Family Affair

I was on Temple Square with my family yesterday.  We were there to support the Ordain Woman movement. And it was amazing!  I’m not a member of Ordain Women.  It’s not that I don’t agree with their premise that women could be ordained to the priesthood.  But Elder Oaks’ remarks at the 2014 Priesthood session, and recent statements by the LDS Church, seem to close the lid on that subject- at least for now. 

I’m not posting to argue the doctrine on this issue.  Many of you have your minds made up that women shouldn’t hold the priesthood, and I respect that.  But for all those who would only be getting your information on the 2014 priesthood demonstration from local news media, I’d like to tell you what I experienced on Temple Square yesterday.

My husband, Jang, and I brought our two-year-old son to the demonstration.  Because of naptime, we were running late, and would just arrive at the tail end of the event.  We parked our car at City Creek and quickly made our way to Temple Square.  Within moments, we saw the Ordain Women line.  And it…was…huge!  It started at the Tabernacle door and wrapped most of the way around the large circular building. Mind you, the women started lining up at 4:30 pm.  We got there after 5:30 pm.  That means women had been approaching the door and been turned away for over an hour before we got there.  Some estimates put the number of participants at 500+ people, and I’m inclined to believe that figure is accurate.

And that wasn’t the most impressive part.  This next part, you might not believe, but I swear it’s the truth—the line was almost entirely comprised of men and women.  The sight was so impressive my husband and I stopped for a moment and took it in.  I even teared up a little bit.  The men and women in that line were standing side-by-side, happy and peaceful.  They looked like there was no other place in this world they’d rather be.  It was exactly what I’d always dreamed of seeing in our Church.  Men and women, working together as participants with an equal voice.  The symbolism of that just astounds me. 

I hadn’t been sure if I would stand in line, and I definitely wasn’t going to push Jang to join me if I did.  But the urge to join with these people quickly became overpowering.  And bless his heart, Jang was right beside me as we quickly took our places at the back of the line.

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Our family together in the priesthood session standby line.

As we stood in the slow-moving line, we started chatting with the women and men around us, who were all very friendly.  Some were staunch supporters of OW.  Others, like me, were there to show their support for all the Movement had already accomplished to expand women’s role in the Church.  We talked and laughed as we recounted our reasons for coming.  For some, just getting to the demonstration had been an adventure. 

Then, the conversation hushed as the front of the line came into view.  An Ordain Women spokeswoman was positioned to the side, and as we drew up by her she explained that each person or group would have the chance to speak to the usher at the front of the line.  We would be turned away, and should then quietly leave the Square.  She invited us to a devotional later that night, and then left us to close the short distance to the Tabernacle door. 

To the side, I saw groups of people move to the side as they were turned away from the Tabernacle.  An OW representative was standing by to give a supportive hug to those recently rejected. Some individuals seemed excited and relieved; others, mostly women, had tears streaming down their faces.   I sympathized with these latter women, who felt this rejection so deeply.  Jang and I unabashedly eavesdropped on the woman in front of us who, as she was turned away by the matronly usher at the door, explained that this denial by the Church would be the final one for her—she was leaving the Church.  

Then it was our turn.  Jang and I approached the kindly woman at the door.  She had been there for hours at this point, but she radiated calmness and compassion.  I had watched her sympathetically listen to the countless women and men before me, some of whom were quite emotional.   We both knew that she would have to turn us away, and I had nothing to say in protest.  So I shook her hand and thanked her for listening to all the people who had gone before me.  She apologized for having us stand in line so long with an infant, and after a little more chitchat, we were on our way.

Yes, my husband and I were turned away from the door of the Tabernacle.  Yes, if Jang had gone by himself he probably would have been let in.  But honestly, that experience was one of the most special of my life.  And I’m so glad I could share it with my wonderful, supportive husband and friend.

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Jang and I being kindly turned away from the Tabernacle.