Year of Polygamy

I’m spending a surprisingly pleasant Sunday listening to the Year of Polygamy podcast.  This is a series dedicated to exploring polygamy in the Mormon Church; and let me tell you, as a practicing Mormon, polygamy has always been a sore point for me.  On the one hand, I was brought up with a deep respect for the prophet Joseph Smith.  On the other hand, I find the practice of polygamy (which Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets adopted) to be a hurtful practice.

Now, the LDS Church officially disavowed the practice of polygamy in 1890, but it has never withdrawn its assertion that this practice was instituted by God– and, arguably, the Church still practices plural marriage today.  No, there aren’t men walking around with forty wives (sorry Brigham Young), but there are men who are married to multiple women in the temple. See, a man who has been widowed or divorced may, with special permission, be sealed (married) to another wife in the temple, without the previous marriage being annulled by the Church.  However–and this should come as no surprise–a woman cannot.

Anyway, I’m having a fun time getting to know the history of this, erhm, interesting practice, and if you’ve ever wanted a primer on our “plural wifery”, this is the place to go.

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A Perfect Baby Blessing

Months ago, my husband and I decided we’d each give Ava a baby blessing. It was a very controversial decision for an LDS family to make.  That is because, in our church, only fathers with the higher priesthood may participate in the public blessing and naming ritual for new infants.  Mothers must sit among the congregants while the baby is being blessed.

But my husband and I are products of a country where, outside of religion, women and men are very nearly equal.  As a parent, I want to send a clear message to our daughter, beginning with her first blessing, that this equality would not end at the doors of the church.   I don’t have the priesthood—but I don’t need the priesthood to give my child a blessing.  I have the right, as a daughter of God, to pray over my children, and expect He will provide guidance, blessings and inspiration in return.

Ava

And so, with only our parents and bishop to witness, Jang held Ava first and gave her a beautiful blessing, which I recorded.  I won’t share it all, but the most touching moment came when he asked God to give her “the strength to know that it’s okay to be different and to be yourself.”  He continued, “I bless you with the desire to accomplish great things in your life…with ambition and leadership that you can be a shining light to other people.  That other people can look to you as someone who is faithful and trustworthy.”  Since a baby blessing more often conveys the parent’s hopes for the child, rather than any prophecy, hearing my husband say these things about our daughter warmed my heart.  I hope Ava will be a trailblazer and example for many people, both inside the LDS faith and outside of it.  We smiled at each other when he finished.

Then it was my turn.  I’d stayed outside the priesthood circle, at my hubby’s request, but now I stepped forward to hold my child.  The bishop, my father and father-in-law stood somewhat awkwardly around me.  I’m sure none of them had any idea what this moment would look like.  Truth be told, neither did I. It was a blessing my own mother had never voiced.  I felt a little uncomfortable coming forward then— but the instant Ava was in my arms, her face brightened, and I felt a calmness come over me.  She recognized me, her mother—and as her mother, this was exactly what I should be doing for her.  Thankfully, I’d thought and prayed beforehand about what I wanted to say; and when all the men had moved to the side or taken their seats, I began to speak:

“Ava this is a special day for you.  This is a day where all your family is gathered together to celebrate your birth.  We’re so very happy you’re a part of our family.  You’ve been blessed with an even temperament and a sweet nature, and we truly hope that these character traits continue in your life.  As your mother, I pray that Heavenly Father will bless you with the ability to clearly know right from wrong, and to be a guide for your siblings and an inspiration for those around you.  It’s important now to stand for things that are right and true.  We hope that you’ll always stick close to the Church and close to your Heavenly Father, and say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.”

As I spoke, I somehow felt a rightness to my words.  I wondered if that is how fathers feel when they bless their children.  In that moment, I was happy, surrounded by family as I held my baby daughter.  I had stuck to my commitment to bless her out of sheer principle—there had been times when Jang and I wondered if it would be worth it to go ahead with the mother’s blessing, fearing how our friends or church leaders would react.  But I can tell you, when we each blessed our daughter in turn, it felt so right; so complete.  As parents, we are a team, and we stood together that day.  And I believe God stood with us as well.

My Husband “Gets Me” Because He’s Asian

I’m a little different than the average Mormon girl. I’ve often voiced my opinion that women should have equal rights and standing in the Church with the men.  This attitude may have put off a beau or two over the years. Fortunately, I married a man who not only appreciates my egalitarian views, he embraces them.

Jang was the only Asian I ever dated in college.  With a student population that is roughly 84% Caucasian, it was practically a given that I’d mostly date white men at BYU.  Then I met Jang. He asked me out, I said yes, and the rest is….well…history.

When you’re dating, you tend to hide the crazy a little bit.  I don’t think Jang quite grasped the depth of my “feminist” leanings until after we were married. It wasn’t long into our marriage, however, before we were having deep discussions about my dissatisfaction with women’s role in the Mormon Church. At that point, I discovered something amazing; he not only appreciated my feelings, he understood them.  Like, really understood them.

Being a racial minority, Jang knows all too well how it feels to be marginalized.  Over the years, he’s explained to me what it felt like to be an Asian kid in the Bronx; the insults, the threats, the constant feeling of being different. He talks animatedly about Jeremy Lin, Ichiro, Wu Tang Clan and Daniel Dae Kim, all for the same reason—they each brought Asians (or Asian culture) into the public eye. America’s acceptance of these groups or people as “cool” made my husband, by extension, feel validated by the mainstream.  Because Asians don’t have a strong presence in any mainstream media.  Their voices aren’t heard.

Jang often tells me how, growing up, he’d search for faces like his on favorite shows, in his favorite sports teams or in the movies.  He never found them.  He’s still looking for them. He understands what it’s like to feel unrepresented by institutions you hold dear.  To not only feel that you’re not being listened to, but also to wonder if the institution even knows you have a voice at all.

So, yeah, he gets it.  He understands my fruitless childhood search for a strong female presence in LDS magazines, in General Conference, in the leadership or even at the pulpit on Sundays.  He comprehends how hard it is to feel like the odd (wo-)man out, to feel that your opinions and feelings aren’t understood or being represented by the people in power. So when I tell him my frustrations with Church culture, and he says he understands how I feel, I believe him.

Growing up, Church culture made me feel like my dissatisfaction was sinful. But American culture has made Jang feel like his dissatisfaction isn’t important.  Both messages are wrong; they’re so…wrong.  We’ve each chosen to reject these untruths.  It’s a process we’ve gone through together, and the experience has made us closer.  It’s odd, but working through my complex feelings towards the Church has helped me understand my husband, and his complex racial identity, better. The main difference now between our experiences is recognition of the problem; while the Mormon church is now debating its treatment of women, the mainstream culture still doesn’t seem to believe racism towards Asians exists.

I often think, what if I’d married in the other 84%?  Would a white man understand my feelings as well and Jang?  Maybe. But it may have been difficult for that man to truly empathize with my situation.  That’s why I so admire the men, and especially white men, who do speak out against gender inequality in the Church and elsewhere.  Because it’s one thing to recognize a wrong exists; but it’s an entirely different thing to have felt that same wrong in your own life.  Experiencing discrimination, and then seeing it inflicted on someone else, gives you feelings that are hard to describe—but they’re strong, and compelling, and having that shared experience binds you to that other person.

Every time I speak with Jang, I’m impressed by the richness of his life experiences.  I hope he’ll share them with you sometime; I’m so glad he’s shared them with me.  He’s been a listening ear and a sympathetic voice during all my struggles.  He’s my rock.

Not my Baby

This April, you won’t see us blessing our daughter in a church. Her father won’t hold her up, Lion King-style, in front of an admiring audience as I sit silently in the back pew. This decision makes us atypical among our Mormon friends. But I simply don’t like the message that the typical baby blessing projects—that Jang, as the head of our household, is the only one worthy enough to bless and present our baby before the congregation.

Let me just tell you how our family works; there is no head of the household.  Jang and I approach religious worship as we do all other aspects of our marriage—as equals.  That’s not to say there’s no division of duties; I recently became—gulp!—a stay-at-home mom.  Thus, by default, I get to make many of the day-to-day decisions on raising our kids. Jang is the “breadwinner” and full-time working parent.  So, although he asks my opinion on many work-related things, he does not consult with me on most decisions about how to run his law firm. It’s not because we necessarily believe in proscribed gender roles; this division of duties, for us, is about what is practical.

But excluding mothers from participating in baby blessings serves no practical purpose.  It is only about division, about demonstrating the “proper” priesthood order that governs the Church today.  In doing so, I believe the Church undermines women’s roles in creating and raising that baby; some would see it as another example of how women are marginalized in the Church today.

Let me tell you the thoughts that go through my head when I think about letting my daughter be blessed in the traditional way. For nine months, I suffered intense bouts of nausea, terrible acid reflux and exhaustion, before laboring to bring her into this world.  Since then, I’ve been her constant companion.  Often, mine is the first face she sees in the morning and the last one before she sleeps at night. In my divine role as her mother, I’m responsible for her nurturing, care and safety. Yet, on the day when she is recognized by my Church, and given a name and a blessing, I’m essentially nothing to her; I don’t even have the standing to be able to bring her before my fellow members and say, “Look! Here is my daughter.”  Nope; I’m just another face in the crowd.  Any adult Melchizedek priesthood holder, although a stranger to her, can participate in this blessing circle. But not me.

View More: http://kayla-brooke.pass.us/ava

I had the traditional baby blessing with my first child. I won’t apologize for this decision; my husband and I wanted to include our new ward in the blessing, because of their many kindnesses to us. Before the blessing, I remember asking the Bishop if I could record it, so that my son could later listen to his father’s words. That request was met with such a firm (if kind) no, I didn’t dare ask if I could participate in the blessing circle. Later, I regretted my choice.  I now firmly believe that there is no justification for prohibiting me, or any other woman, from participating in blessing her child.

The thing is, my ideas about revelation and blessings have come a long way since first blessing our son almost three years ago. I know now that every person, whether a priesthood holder or not, has the right to ask for (even promise) blessings upon their family. I’ve discarded the image of my husband as being the head of our family and the primary source of God’s revelation for us. As my children’s mother and primary caregiver, I know their spirits and personalities more intimately than anyone. And while I emphatically believe in the sacredness of priesthood blessings, and I believe my husband will receive revelation to guide our children’s future lives, I also know I can too.

And so, we’ve made a decision; this time around, we won’t bless our baby in a church. Her father won’t carry her ceremoniously up to the mount of revelation, leaving me behind with the masses. In this at least, I will not be a second-class participant in my children’s religious lives. Not only will I hold her during the blessing, I may even say a few words about my baby as well. Because, if I speak, it will be as a mother who prays over her children constantly, and who has already called down numerous blessings from Heavenly Father for her small family. Asking God for revelation and blessings, particularly concerning my children, is something I am entitled to do as a mother, without regard for any institution (religious or otherwise) on this earth. And so, if I choose to speak, I have no doubt the Spirit can be with me, as well as my husband, to give us direction for her future life. I don’t need for it to be officially recognized by the Church for the words to proceed from God. In conducting the blessing this way, I do not feel I’m undermining my husband’s priesthood authority; I hope I am complementing it.

I hope the blessing can be an opportunity for our family to establish healthy interactions, not only with the Mormon church, but with one another as well.  With this decision, I want to show my children that their father and I are equals before God, both at home and at Church.  And since that equality is not apparent in the blessings that take place in Church today, our daughter’s will take place where it belongs—in our home.

And I’m recording the entire thing, darn it.

Father’s Day Discourses

In light of recent events in the LDS Church, I was very interested in the Father’s Day sermons that would be given in various wards. Reading the stories on the Mormon message boards provided me with moments of hilarity but also hope. Here’s a wonderful story (re-posted with the author’s permission):

Exploring Sainthood Father's Day post

Why the LDS Church Needs Feminists

I’d like to reflect on my upbringing in the Church. To me, the Church’s relationship towards women alternates between benign patriarchy and austere rigidity. This was demonstrated to me from a young age, as I heard from my leaders about the woman I was supposed to be.

This lesson came from the top-down, most notably during General Conference. In the dearth of female speakers, we listened to the aged men before us tell us about their saintly mothers, persevering wives, and angelic daughters. They taught us to be ministering angels, selfless spouses, and gentle advocates for Christ. We were their better halves, with a divine nature that was to be both celebrated and protected, at all costs.

These spiritual giants told us that we were the true examples of Christ like behavior to the men and children under our care, but in the same breath upheld the divine mandate that men were to preside over us in family and Church life. If a woman should ever wish to leave her divinely appointed role as a stay at home mother, she was in some way going against the mandate of God. The ideal woman supported and upheld the men in her life, from infancy to adulthood, never asking for a thank you or recognition in return. For her entire life, she would be a silent witness as her man achieved prestige and recognition, both professionally and in the Church.

The majority of lessons and activities for LDS girls seemed focused on molding each of us into this “ideal” woman. Our virtue was one of our most important assets, and so in conduct, thought, and language, we had to be pure. Upholding this rigid standard was even more imperative because, owing to our more spiritual natures, we had to protect the men in our lives from transgressing the law of chastity, either in thought or in deed. Cultivating the Spirit was essential to this end; and so we had to regulate our music, television, movies, conversation, and, most importantly, our dress.  We were repeatedly counseled that Christ had said if a man looked on a woman to lust after her, he was committing adultery already in his heart.  We would literally be leading the young men down the path to hellfire if we did not scrupulously moderate our dress, the most easily identifiable way of controlling the men’s nearly uncontrollable sexual libido.  For the modest young woman, wearing sleeveless dresses or short skirts was anathema. A glimpse of shoulder or thigh could easily cause a young man to have sinful thoughts. In that case, the sin was equally ours.

If, Heaven forbid, we were to transgress sexually, we would be forever tainted by that act. In pointed analogies, we were told we would be broken vessels, or chewed up gum, should we commit this sin. Losing our virginity before marriage would be a scar that would mar our souls, and we would forever know that we hadn’t remained true and faithful to our commitments.

Every Wednesday, we would hold activities (often involving crafting or cooking) and socialize with the young men, who we knew were being molded to become strong, confident providers for us. In Sunday lessons, when we were divided into our all-girls meeting, we would hear stories about the spiritual promptings that shaped our leaders’ lives: when they knew their husband was “the one”; the many times they’d had to rely on the sensitive whisperings of the Spirit to perform their roles as housewives and mothers. Never were we encouraged to work outside the home; this was only a last resort, if our husbands turned out to be unable to provide. I remember feeling a secret shame for that archetypal, incapable husband. Correspondingly, we were encouraged to pursue higher education, but it was only to complement our future roles as spouses and mothers. Education was, at its heart, a contingency plan. I can only remember a single lesson, in the five years that I was in this youth program, when the girls had a career night—one of the highlighted careers being a stay at home mom.

During the summers, while the young men went on grueling 3-day bike rides, white water rafting trips, and camped out in primitive conditions (all to bond them to one another and to develop the inner strength needed to confront the hard world) we had  “Girls Camp”. Our Camp emphasized spiritual, as opposed to physical, development, and so for five days we would recline in comfortable cabins, eat prepared meals and have activities designed for our enjoyment. We would do crafts, cook foil-wrapped dinners, play volleyball, and have testimony meetings on the well-manicured grass at nights. At all times, women and priesthood leaders supervised us; and at night, the men would take shifts to patrol the camp, scaring girls who ventured out after bedtime by rustling the bushes, making us shriek with fear and run back to the safety of our locked cabins.

Every significant role in Church was, and still is, held by men. The Bishop served as a spiritual guide to the ward. He and his male counselors always sat at the front pulpit on Sundays, directing the meetings, calling upon speakers, and supervising the administration of the sacrament. He collected our tithing, gave regular addresses to the congregation, and we confessed our sins (even those of a sensitive nature) to him. His counselors supervised the running of the ward as well—overseeing activities, conducting interviews, and handling all monetary transactions in the ward. Ultimately, all planned activities, all callings, and all Church meetings needed the approval of this man, the Bishop, before they could proceed.

Our male counterparts, the young men, carried out the sacrament. For a few moments every Sunday, these goofy boys would transform into solemn priesthood holders as they meticulously repeated the words of the sacrament prayers and blessed the bread and water. Then, in a uniform, white-shirted column, they passed the sacrament to the congregation. In this way, the entire sacrament became, not only a moment to remember Christ, but an opportunity to see the overriding patriarchy of God’s Church in action.

As a youth, I struggled against this institutional inequality; from my insistence on wearing pants (so I could somehow feel equal to the men) to my failed attempts to organize the first-ever white water rafting trip for young women.  When I went to college at BYU, there was less of a division between men and women in our youth wards—we were similar ages and had shared activities—but the structure of the Church was the same. In addition, I was also surrounded with adult byproducts of this youth training program. The consequences for not conforming to Church norms would be social rejection.

As I finished my undergraduate studies, then an LDS mission, I found myself an unmarried and working adult. The only option for me then was graduate school—this would serve the dual purpose of buying me more time to get married, and better equipping me for a rewarding job if I could not find a spouse.

In the rigorous intellectual environment of BYU Law School, I began to consciously address the pain from my LDS upbringing for the first time.  I realized my childhood in the Church had some positive, as well as negative, results. My upbringing had cultivated in me a feeling of worth as a child of God, a strong sense of right and wrong, and an enquiring mind. However, one of the reasons I even attended law school was because I had graduated college with no career plans. No one in my Church experience had prepared me for the “what ifs” of life as a single adult. I was terrified of being a working adult with only an undergraduate education, because my degree did not guarantee me a rewarding and satisfying job. Only through the gentle prodding of my parents did I begin to study law.

Then, as a lawyer, I found myself confronting this same anxiety. Why, I wondered, as a well-educated adult, would I still feel ill equipped and frightened of going out into the work force? Goodness knows my parents had always encouraged me to have a prestigious career. I can only point to the messages I received from the Church, both stated and un-stated, as the root of this anxiety. By differentiating us at a young age, often with separate activities and separate doctrinal lessons, I was taught that I was different from the young men. The General Authorities and local leaders then answered the question of how I was different. At heart, I was a foil to them—more sensitive, tenderer, more spiritually inclined. I was not to compete with the men in my life—I was to complement them. My highest calling in life would be to raise and nurture children, and so any vocational aspirations would take away from fulfilling this goal. Ultimately, I was at no loss to explain my inadequate and fearful feelings of being a career woman—it’s a wonder I contemplated pursuing a legal career at all!

I support the doctrine of the family and the priesthood; but I am troubled by the control that men have in nearly all aspects of Church administration, both temporal and spiritual.  Does it take having the priesthood to manage the finances of a ward; to conduct a sacrament meeting; to organize ourselves as women and young women; even to pass the sacrament? Why is there this overriding need of the men in the Church to elevate women on a pedestal while denying them full expression as human beings? I am not a foil to you men. I am not a complement to you, your other half, or your ideal spiritual being. I am a child of God, and the standard I should be held to is how my character emulates Christ’s—not your sainted mother, your silent wife, or your revered pioneer ancestress.

I hope, as men and women of my generation assume leadership roles in their wards, stakes and areas of the Church, this cultural inflexibility towards women’s roles will change. The young women of today need us to be their examples, need so-called “feminist” women to speak up, assume more leadership roles, and prepare for futures outside of the roles of mother and homemaker. Let us grow and develop as individuals, not to be viewed as lesser or greater than you men. In the end, we are all equal before God.

 

Apostacy and the Facebook Debate

Screen shot 2014-05-13 at 7.04.55 AM

I hope you find this Facebook exchange as dumbfounding as I do.  It all started because I RSVP’d to the “Ordain Women’s Six Discussions Launch!” on May 15th. That same day, someone I don’t know posted below my RSVP saying, “Since Paul warned against hanging out with apostates, we are not going!” Something you should know about me—I don’t like it when people make snap judgments; and I hate bullying, especially ideological bullying. In LDS culture, apostate is a loaded term—even implying someone is apostate can be very offensive. I didn’t see why that person would feel the need to use that term, just because I’d said I was going to listen to the first OW Discussion.  So my immediate thought was, “Oh no you didn’t!

Then I took the next logical step and checked out this person’s FB profile—what do you know, he* spends his time perusing Ordain Women and feminist blogs, “correcting flawed reasoning and false doctrines.” In fact, he’d posted the same “apostate” comment below another woman’s RSVP to the OW event! And with that, it was on. This person had made it their mission to go around making inflammatory statements on the Internet, and, whether he knew it or not, he had just picked a fight with me.  Thus began the following Facebook exchange.

    • Jackie Ball I’m sorry, but there are few authorized messengers of God. I’d check with Church authorities before making that kind of statement. And you don’t seem qualified, either personally or by proper Church authority, to be a judge of your fellow men.
      May 11 at 8:13am · Edited · Like · 1
    •  Adam K. Allred True To The Faith: “Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that you should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, you will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout your life.”
    • Jackie Ball You can try to judge as regards yourself and your relationships Adam K. Allred- but calling someone apostate means you’ve made a judgment on their relationship with God and the Church. Sounds like overstepping one’s bounds (as few judges in Israel can make the determination of one’s worthiness and standing in the LDS Church) and therefore unrighteous judgment to me.
    •  Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Actually Christ taught that we are able to, and should judge, others under the direction of the spirit. That is how we can know who to preach to, and as Paul directed, who we should avoid having communion with. Each individual is entitled to know by personal revelation where apostasy lies, so they can avoid organizations that support it and people who teach it. Sharing those spiritual impressions may not be binding on others, but it does put them on notice to beware, and thus fulfills the command to warn our neighbors.
    •  Jackie Ball I disagree; your words and unjustified judgment do not denote the presence of the Spirit. Moreover, if you truly read the scriptures, such as the Sermon on the Mount, you would know that a disciple of Christ is repeatedly cautioned against fallen man’s natural tendencies to judge your fellow men unrighteously. You’ve admitted your impression may not be binding on others, but even in applying the term “apostates” to an ENTIRE group of people, you’re overreaching your spiritual stewardship as a member of the LDS church and as a disciple of Christ.
    • Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Disagreement is expected. The Pharisees thought Jesus was the apostate, not them, the brethren who sought to overthrow Joseph in Kirtland, thought Joseph was apostate not them. Apostate persons or organization rarely ever admit their status as such. It is the Holy Spirit that will verify that the OW movement is an apostate movement. Here is what the scriptures really teach: Matthew 7:1-2 JST a clear command to judge righteously. Matthew 7:15-17 you can judge false prophets to be false by their fruits. Moroni 7:16 one purpose we have the spirit is to judge. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, requires judgment to determine our associations. There are hundreds more. Bottom line, before anyone participates in or supports this movement they should seek the spirit, which will warn them of the movement’s true nature and founder. God commands us to love all our neighbors and love means we seek to warn them all. Thus warning all and sharing what the spirit has taught us is completely within the bounds of our spiritual stewardship.
    • Jackie Ball You read these scriptures about people wrongly judging Christ and Joseph Smith as apostates, and see no caution to yourself to avoid unrighteous judgment? My B.S. detector goes off when I hear someone say “here is what the scriptures ‘really’ teach”, and then use them to gratify their self-serving ideas. What qualifies you to judge the OW members’ hearts, and judge the leaders of this group to be apostate? How is your judgment of other people’s moral worthiness (people whom you do not seem to know personally) righteous and within your stewardship? When have you studied what OW advocates? Have you spoken and gotten to know them? Can’t you see a clear admonition to you in Matthew 7:1-2, Moroni 7:16 to make sure you be truly informed and know the people you are judging? The scriptures actually uniformly urge restraint in judging others, most notably those you cited in Matthew and Moroni, and clarify Christ is the only person who can truly judge a person’s heart. Isa. 11:3-4; Rom. 2:1.
      May 11 at 9:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
    • Kristy Money Hi Brother and Sister Shurtleff, Kristy Money here, from SC. I’m so glad you are passionate about the gospel, just like OW supporters are, hopefully we can respectfully dialogue and refrain from throwing around the word apostate. Because we are all just doing our best to follow the Spirit and be good members of the church, even when we disagree.
    • Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Jackie: It is hypocritical to chide others for “twisting the scriptures to gratify their self serving idea” and to do so by twisting the scriptures to gratify one’s own self serving ideas. The scriptures when read in spiritual context, teach that all of God’s children, every living soul, is entitled to know by revelation from God, if an organization and its supporters are true followers of Jesus or are teaching apostate doctrines. God is qualified to judge OW and its supporters, AND if the perfect God then reveals to me or others that OW is laboring under apostasy, it is God’s judgement and not the persons that you must take issue with. God wants us to know truth and to avoid deception, and so will guide each soul to avoid organizations, movements and their supporters whose actions are contrary to God’s will. Thus the only issue that really remains is whether God has revealed to me the true nature of the OW movement, and if he has, others should take the warning and likewise go to Him to know the truth. Since you admit that Christ is the only one who can judge, then however, he judges you, me and the OW movement, you should be willing to accept it.
      13 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Adam K. Allred Kristy: What are they supposed to call this group, if not apostate? People who profess love for the gospel but just happen to advocate positions that are contrary to it? The reference to this group as apostate is not an effort to provoke, but rather to give a warning of what it truly is. They would not be calling it apostate if it were not so obviously rebelling against the church.
      13 hours ago · Like · 1
    • Jackie Ball Not so Nina/Keith Shurtleff; my ideas are not self-serving, and I find it interesting you upbraid me for something you yourself are doing! You have judged and insulted me without any basis–according to you, I am a hypocrite AND an apostate. Your spiritual meter is clearly off. If there is hypocrisy, it is in someone who claims to know the “spiritual context” of the scriptures yet ignores the basic admonition to avoid unrighteous judgment and to love your fellow men. I don’t claim to be perfect enough to know God’s judgment of an entire group of people, like OW- yet you do. Your actions are not consistent with someone who could receive such a revelation. And your refusal to acknowledge that the ability to judge someone’s standing in the Church (whether they are apostate) is outside of your sphere of stewardship, astounds me. I see a person with single-minded views, who claims to know the will of God but does not have the spiritual acumen or insight to be able to know His will. Leave such grand proclamations of moral worthiness to the appropriate person–Christ.
      11 hrs · Edited · Like
    • Nina AndKeith Shurtleff Restating flawed arguments and misapplication of scripture does not make them any more valid. Our polarized positions are clear for sincere truth seekers to consider. Either Christ, the appropriate judge, has revealed to me by his Holy Spirit that the OW movement and its supporters are suffering under apostasy, or he has not. For obvious reasons Jackie does not believe it, but that does not change my assertions. So now the choice lies with the uncommitted, sincere truth seekers to read both positions and then to prayerfully seek to know the truth of the matter by revelation from God. That is the only real value of such exchanges as this.
    • Adam K. Allred You claim that he has judged and insulted you. I don’t believe that either is actually the case, especially the latter. He has simply seen what you are supporting and has told you what the Spirit has revealed unto him – that the OW group is not in good standing with God. You claim that he has insulted you. I may be mistaken, but I do not see an objective to insult by him. His only comment that I feel could be considered insulting is when he call the OW movement apostate. If you are offended by this then perhaps you are one who “taketh the truth to be hard.
      You claim that he is a hypocrite because he claims to know spiritual context while exercising unrighteous judgement towards others as well as not loving them. I would argue that it is because he loves you and the OW members that he spends time to dispel false doctrine and malcontent towards God’s current Church here on Earth. It is because he, along with many others, feels the spirit manifest truth that his judgments are not unrighteous. You can claim that he does not feel the Spirit concerning this topic which will slightly discount his words, but this does not make it true. You state that it requires a perfect person to judge the merits of this group. I cannot restrain myself from saying that this is ridiculous. We came here to gain a body, to know good from evil, and to prove our allegiance to that which is good. If someone could not so much as determine whether a group is correct in its doctrinal views then they would surely be unfit to be tested on their choices.“Your actions are not consistent with someone who could receive such a revelation” I don’t know how well you know Bishop Shurtleff, but I personally have found him to be a very charitable man. He isn’t boastful of his righteous actions nor of his service for Christ but instead he lives, as I have seen, as a witness of the truthfulness of the gospel. If there is any person that I know personally who’s actions merit the blessings of revelation, that person would be Bishop Shurtleff.”I see a person with single-minded views, who claims to know the will of God but does not have the spiritual acumen or insight to be able to know His will.” I don’t want to appear to pretend to know how God thinks, but it seems to me that He also has, by your definition, a singleness in mind when it comes to the Gospel. That is, doctrine that is correct, that He has revealed to His prophets here on Earth, and doctrine that is incorrect. I do not believe that He sees the OW’s cause as viable dependent on the number of times He is asked for it to be. He is the enforcer of truth. “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away”(Doctrine and Covenants 1:38) According to this, He has doctrine that is already in place, and it can not be changed by any person who feels “open-minded” enough to challenge it. Continuing on to the next verse: “For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.” Notice that it is the Spirit that is bearing record to men concerning the truth.”Leave such grand proclamations of moral worthiness to the appropriate person–Christ.” What would Christ have us do? He is not currently residing on the Earth, for reasons that should be evident. Yet, I believe that He has made proclamations through those who do listen to the Spirit and through his apostles here on Earth.
      9 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
    • Jackie Ball Of course I don’t believe your assertions Keith/Nina Shurtleff, because your attitudes and unfamiliarity with the people in this group prove you could not have received this revelation. I am not saying they are inspired, chosen by God, or any other such grand statement. I only took exception to your high-handed, uninformed judgment of the ENTIRE group as apostate. Now I also take exception to your belief that someone who does not believe you are an inspired messenger, must be misapplying scripture. Please carefully choose the labels you apply to people before trolling the internet to make your views known. Thank you for the detailed analysis of my words Adam K. Allred, I’ll do you the respect of disproving your arguments in order. First point: you cannot claim Keith Shurtleff didn’t have an objective to insult me when he has applied the labels of “hypocrite” and “apostate” to me, solely as a supporter of OW and someone who doesn’t agree with Keith’s self-serving interpretation of the scriptures. Example: “God is qualified to judge OW and its supporters, AND if the perfect God then reveals to me or others that OW is laboring under apostasy, it is God’s judgement and not the persons that you must take issue with.” Silly Keith- not only am I not a member of Ordain Women, I don’t advocate for women to have the priesthood (although I believe they could someday); if such views are “apostate” then here is proof he has sadly, sadly misjudged me. How could I take the “truth” to be hard when his words are not true, and based on false beliefs about me and my character? I don’t feel OW to be apostate, but we’ll move on to your next point: I can’t know Keith Shurtleff does not feel the Spirit concerning this topic. How can he receive a spiritual revelation that is outside of the sphere of his stewardship, and of people whom he does not know personally? The General Authorities have repeatedly cautioned against making judgments based on limited information. Keith Shurtleff has not given any evidence, other than his feelings, that he can know this group is apostate. How can you judge someone you don’t know? That is patently obvious to me, which brings me to your third point: I claimed it takes a perfect person to judge this group. You misstated me; I specifically said Keith should leave judgments to Christ, but my main point was Keith Shurtleff was not qualified to make that judgment. Dallin H. Oaks gave a wonderful talk about judgments, “Judge Not and Judging”. I agree with Elder Oaks’ talk, and never took exception to Keith’s idea that we can be inspired by the Spirit in making judgments about how to direct our own lives. But Dallin Oaks specifically cautions, “we should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities” and we should “refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts”. Bishop or not, “charitable” or not, Keith is not entitled to label a group or a person apostate; I’m not within his stewardship, neither are the OW leaders. He has not proved to have adequate knowledge of the people or positions to be able to judge. And none of his actions on this post have showed any of that charity or humility you claim for him (point four). Point five: don’t quote scriptures and ignore their context. God constantly gives our leaders revelation to direct the Church. If his doctrine was already fully & correctly established, why, only through questioning by LDS leaders, did we subsequently receive the vision of the three degrees of glory (D&C 76) and the EXTENSION of the priesthood to members of African descent (Official Declaration 2). If anything, these experiences show me OW’s cause can be as viable as others; which is why I say, again, the priesthood can be extended to women, even if I don’t advocate the change right now. Look back again at my posts, you will see I originally only took exception to Keith Shurtleff’s broad misstatement of OW and their supporters as “apostate”. His subsequent comments only re-confirmed my opinion that Keith Shurtleff cannot have received a mandate from God to tell the world his ill-formed judgment.
      17 mins · Edited · Like
      [*If you’ve made it to the end of this FB exchange, you know why I believe this was the husband writing; although either spouse, or both, could have chimed in.]
      I know I should’ve turned the other cheek; I clearly did nothing to convince him he was wrong in labeling me and Ordain Women apostate.  But something inside of me just feels so good at standing up to him.